Sequencer Patch (Updated Timeline Patch)

To sum up those two topics and other idea: http://kineme.net/Discussion/GeneralDiscussion/Recordrealtimeqtzmidiinpu...

http://kineme.net/Discussion/GeneralDiscussion/QuartzCrystalNonLinearrec...

If we take the timeline patch for base, what could be create or change to get a new Sequencer Patch ?

1) Create a record/play/pause/reset fonction (Separate Play and Pause input would be helpful for manage separately long sequences or just "one shoot" trigger sequences...).

2) Of course, keep the Timebase parameter option ! (it could be great to slow down or accelerate a sequence)

3) Create a virtual/selectable input (except Image input for the moment).

4) Like "Interpolation patch", create Duration input (Duration limits are needed for sequencing option) and a Repeat mode (One Shoot/Loop/Mirrored Loop/Mirrored Loop Once) wish affect all the timelines in the patch, but as it could be difficult to manage with multiple Curves and timelines, the Sequencer Patch should be centred on only one Timeline by patch. For multiple "tracks" we should open multiple Sequencer Patch, and it could be more simple to inprove Sequencer Option in the future too...

5) Create an OverDub Recording Option, like in midi recording softwares. That mean, if the repeat mode is set to "Loop", the recording fonction won't stop at the end of the duration but restart indefinitely and replace "Old data" by "New Data" if different values are Sent to the input and keep "Old Data" when nothing change. (It could be great to affine a sequence, or to loop a perpetual recording in interactive projects...)

(Sorry for my Drawn-out/Frenchy English !)

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tobyspark's picture
3) ie. sequence string output

ability to output indexes, strings etc would be great. nothing you couldn't hack with a queue patch now, but this has the chance to a) be very artist-friendly and b) the master control for the behaviour of your comp (as opposed to it being in a thousand patches around the comp).

toby

psonice's picture
Stable

Actually, you can do almost all of this with the current timeline + external time, queues, and perhaps a little javascript. It'd be nice to do it in a 'clean' way though.

My number one wish though: not crashing. I really, really hate when the current timeline patch causes QC to hang just because I drag a point! Other stuff that would be great: - copy + paste points or groups of points - save/load sequence/timeline

mfreakz's picture
Ok... What about THE Recording fonction ?

I'm agree with you. By instability, the Timeline Patch get practically unusable. But we speak about a proud new Patch. Timeline is just an exemple for begining. This topic is about a Sequencer Patch. Current Timeline + external time, queues and Javascript let you make a noodly controled Timeline but not a real Sequencer Patch. The first fonction of a Sequencer is to record and overdub in real time, your inputs. The triggering and looping fonctions are also very specific. The timeline patch would be an exemple as Editor. With this Sequencer Patch, you may record in rel time and edit recorded values/points in a timeline like editor. That's why the Timeline Patch was quote. The Sequencer Patch will replace the buggy Timeline Patch adding Free recordings and looping fonctions and playing/looping options.

I'm agree with you about the save/load fonctions. I just think CWright is working on File Tools/text file writer and it could be great to have the same way to manage with "back ups" in QC. So the Sequencer Patch should have an input (string input) for loading ability and a String Ouput too. Some users will use this Patch as an Inpulse trigger, other as a Sound or events sequencer, others would like to load/save data...

memo's picture
very nice

I think this is a brilliant idea. If I understand correctly, this patch would be like a single track/parameter in a DAW. The term 'sequencer' confused me at first, because to me that implies controlling and triggering multiple values, parameters, events etc. - but maybe I'm wrong and that's semantics and doesn't really matter that much one you read the whole post and understand what its about.

So essentially it would be like a mixture of the Value Historian talked about in this thread http://kineme.net/Discussion/GeneralDiscussion/Recordrealtimeqtzmidiinpu... combined with a timeline editor. So the patch can record the input, then graph it with splines etc. And you can tweak edit the splines, punch in/out overdub recording etc.

Basically just like the functionality you'd find in a single parameter automation of a DAW like Ableton Live. I'd definitely vote (and donate) for this.

mfreakz's picture
Thanx for your vote !

Thank you Memo. I wonder why QC doesn't have an easy way to Store/Sequence data ? Even in an interactive project Sequences would be a great tool. Sometimes we spend a lot of time introducing Mathematical expression to produce "physical" or "natural" effects, and it could be easy and natural to use a midi controler ! Musician use to ask for manual control... Imagine if values were coming from a sound factor (frequency, level...) to modify videos or 3D objects...

Otherwise, i know your website and i enjoy your works ;) I'm working on a "Multitouch" project (with a different camera system).

cwright's picture
very cool

So, after watching this thread and the value historian one unfold a bit, I'm really excited about this new functionality, and wonder if it would be appropriate to combine these two, since they cover very similar ground.

Also, should the recorded data go in the patch (so that the composition is self-contained), or should it go in a separate file (my initial idea was for separate files) -- I'm thinking that both would be useful, as well as some kind of "Takes" system for the in-patch system (so you can replay different takes with the same patch).

The value editor would be very difficult (since I have nearly zero UI experience on OS X still), but the files would almost certainly be plist-compliant, so you could edit them in Property List Editor, if nothing else.

Any other thoughts? I'd like to jump in on this relatively soon (next couple weeks, if all goes well...)

toneburst's picture
the option of having the

the option of having the data rolled into the patch and the option to save out a file would be best. Maybe it records internally, (so it's always saved in the QTZ), then gives you the option to save-out the data to an external file.

Sounds exciting...

a|x

memo's picture
snap!

I saw Christopher's post above on the RSS and just came to the site to say the exact same thing Alex :P I think that would work ace - save all the data in the patch (so the composition is self-sufficient) with the ability to export/import the data (plists sound good).

I am quite excited about this patch. QC is very good for creating stuff which is real-time interactive, but one has only so many hands and fingers, and its hard to control everything at the same time. And mfreakz you're right, sometimes direct human interaction gives better results than programmatic behaviours - and I'm really looking forward to recording and playing back layers and layers of human interaction, having this ability really will give the best of both worlds!

A few random thoughts:

  • Dunno how feasible it would be to manage multiple parameters from within a single patch. So you can select the number of parameters from the patch settings page, and the number of inputs/outputs vary accordingly. The important thing is to have individual control over play/record/import/export for each parameter. Actually this feature (having multiple params per patch) isn't that big of a deal, it would just make the comp tidier, but worst case scenario (if its a pain), we could just put the patches in a macro patch.

  • I like the 'takes' concept. Like 'presets' or 'channels' of animation. Morphing between the presets could also be quite cool. So you choose channelA, channelB, and a mix factor.

  • Like mentioned above, I'm guessing punch in/out would be useful so that if you record a 30 minute session, but screwup a few times here and there, you wouldn't want to re-record the whole thing but only the bit where you screwed up. In addition, you might want to to start the whole composition from around that point too, so you don't have to wait 20 minutes to start performing the bit you want to perform. So external timebase (or perhaps an even simpler solution?) would be useful. Saying that, if there is punch in/out recording, there is quite likely going to be a snap or jump at the point where the recording starts. Another reason where spline based timeline editing would really be useful. If the data is a plist, I guess this could even be a standalone utility if need be...

looking forward to it!

mfreakz's picture
Hack the Timeline ?

All those suggestions announce a really great Patch !

A question for CWright: The first idea was to upgrade the Timeline patch and to turn it into a new Sequencer Patch adding an input and a rec/play/reset trigger. Now the project seems more ambitious, but couldn't you "Hack" the Timeline Patch to keep the same UI as an editor ?

Tomorow, i will list all our suggestions to keep a clear project.

.lov.'s picture
trigger sequencer

Really interesting feature request, very cool :)

A year ago i made a trigger sequencer for one of my projects, you can download it: http://www.quartzcompositions.com/phpBB2/upload/details.php?file=1410

Very simple, but usefull.

I use it in my qc based vj app - called CoGe - for clip triggering, here is a screenshot: http://coge.lovqc.hu/coge081.jpg

gtoledo3's picture
This thread really bloomed

This thread really bloomed in the past couple of days.

This is an idea that I have sooo many notes on, and I have to go through and re-read them.

Off the top, I will throw in that if there is an "overdub" option, then we need to be able to "arm" punch in and punch out points without having to push any buttons.

What I mean by that is that you would let the composition play, and it would know to only start recording new values at point A, and it would quit the overwriting of values at point B. That way you wouldn't have to hit "record" and then scurry to quickly interact with the composition with your mouse, keyboard, etcetera.

Would it be possible to create "play" loops with something like this... ie, you could loop the first 10 seconds of a comp 4 times, and have it rotate 15 degrees each time... and then the comp could proceed to play the rest? Could you specify that seconds 20~30 of a composition play in reverse, for example?

mfreakz's picture
Don't panic ! ;)

I try to summarize all the suggestions in a clear, graphic illustration. I"m still working about the Structure flow organization, but i found a couple of Patches that should be simple and that could be use with all other Structure Tools to become multipurpose.

mfreakz's picture
Sequencer Patches: The Trailer !

Hi there, Here is my graphical summary of the Sequencer Patches (Two Patches) I have resolve some option/multipurpose Matter in a Graphic way. The principal question is: how is Structured the Structure flow ! The sequence must be include in one, fixed Structure Snap Shoot (for multipurpose, Kineme File Tools inclusion, etc...).

If we store the Frame as a "member" with a specific value, we can't store different parameters in the same structure (oh No !) and we are forced to run the composition/Quartz Crystal at the same and fixed frame rate... It sucks !

A better way is to manage Structure like that: 1) The time code. 2) The parameter value index. 3) The value.

But as you could see, i'm not a programmer, i'm a QC newbie, i have difficulties to express myself in English... It's very difficult for me to explain what i imagine for this future couple of patches.

So here is my first suggestion (See File attachments) I hope you could understand me with this picture...

http://kineme.net/files/SEQPATCH.jpg

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mfreakz's picture
Roll Over Time: we should use a Macro Patch for this feature...

Hi, gtoledo3 speak about "Roll over" time. It's an efficient improvement for sure, but i don't think adding "Roll Over" Time to the Sequencer patch is a good way. It need also, a boolean trigger ouput too, to add a Comput display (you'll have to visualise when the recording is active), and other complicated option to be useful.

For me: the simple way to do that is to create a "Roll Over macro patch" (with Start/stop + "Math + Conditionnal...) that can wait for a certain length before trigging the Start button of the Sequencer Patch. It could help you to visualise or add sound to your "Roll Over" macro. You could also visualise the counter in your screen, add other option, etc...

psonice's picture
Roll-over time

This is already very easy, just use a patch time and feed it into a range patch. That gives roll-over time.

gtoledo3's picture
Oh, I guess I was

Oh, I guess I was visualizing something where there would just be a input for "sequencer start/enable" and for "sequencer end/disable" that would be expressed in seconds. And then a separate on/of.

That way you could just attach an interpolation, or lfo to the sequencer start value, and it would play, reverse, loop, etecetera, if you like.

So I could have a macro of a dog running that ends with it wagging it's tail for example, controlled by a "sequencer patch". I would record mouse movements, etcetera. Untouched, it would play in whatever way it was that you manipulated it as you were "recording".

But, you could attach it to an interpolation and have it go back and forth in "timeline". So the dog could run, wag it's tail a few times, walk back and forth... all from attaching an interpolation to the recorded values in the "sequencer/value historian". Or just generate weird glitchiness.

At the same time, other elements in the qtz. could play out regular.

So you could do something like animate a bucket of water being thrown, move it across the screen with your mouse as the water splashes out- then the interpolation could make the "sequencer" do a reverse and suck the water back into the bucket, and also reverse any mouse movements you made.... basically, whatever is "inside" of the sequencer patch.

I view the value historian patch as something that I would like to see as a macro that I could place elements inside of. It would also have a predelay/delay... that way you could duplicate a macro and offset it a few seconds, or in conjunction with the start/end times, have one moving perfectly as you did your mouse movements, and the duplicate macro running perfectly in mirror reverse.

I promise I will go back and read all of this, I am sure I am saying something that has probably already been mentioned here, and I apologize for posting this before I have read all the messages in these threads... :o)

mfreakz's picture
Do you have a look to this...

http://kineme.net/files/SEQPATCH.jpg

I know that king of speculative drawing are just a preliminary/reflexive work, but anyone has saw my Diagram at last ? I'll be waiting for two days to have you opinion !

I mean i don't expect an artistic advice on the graphic composition ! Don't worry, i don't to take offence... The most important is: What about the logic of recording data as "Structures" and add the Sequencer and Player Patches in the Structure Tools ? It could solve the question of Save/Load Sequences, it could solve the question of different "Takes" during recording and playing options, it could solve the question of Recorder fine option like "Roll over time" using dedicated Macro patches... Could you give me a feedback...

CWright, is my research useful for you ?

Akiem's picture
Re: Sequencer Patch (Updated Timeline Patch)

Is this still in the works?

gtoledo3's picture
Re: Sequencer Patch (Updated Timeline Patch)

You can sign up for the beta release testing and checkout the Value Historian plugin, and take a look at the associated threads for some ideas about how it works... or feel free to ask more if it doesn't make sense. There are plenty of people here that can help in advising how to make it work well for you.

itsthejayj's picture
Re: Sequencer Patch (Updated Timeline Patch)

Just re-reading this topic. :) If this plug in ever sees the light of day the a/v production possibilities in QC and Abe live would be overwelling for me !! can not wait

franz's picture
Re: Sequencer Patch (Updated Timeline Patch)

One hope, one quest.....

Meanwhile, you can still:

  • have a look at CoGe source (see luv. website), there's a 16 step sequencer included.
  • use Ableton Live (or even Plogue Bidule, cheaper) for sequencing, send data via midi through IAC bus.

itsthejayj's picture
Re: Sequencer Patch (Updated Timeline Patch)

one hope, one quest and allot of faith in Kineme.

Thanks for the pointers Franz but they wouldn't allow me to get my desired output or quality.

Imagine a comp which is completely controlled by midi signals piped into qc using the IAC bus, now with many midi notes and cc's steering a very intensive media rich composition i use Qcrstal to my render composition.

Hence i need to record every midi signal before rendering my qc composition using quartz Crystal.

ofersmi's picture
Re: Sequencer Patch (Updated Timeline Patch)

Hey, no activity for a while here, but I was wondering if the updated timeline is still in works? I am trying to have QC be my controller for coge and reaktor through OSC and this looks like a good thing here... beta? published... ? whats up?