The Lion roars to life, what about QC

harrisonpault's picture

Now that 10.7.0 is commercially available, and the nda walls are vaporized, what advice do the beta savants have for us? Is this an upgrade to be delayed or avoided for QC development? Are there known breakages, or caveats?

Personally, I am up to date on SL and don't see big reasons to move, although there might be a thunderbolt Air in my near future.

But I am concerned about some of the pre-release scuttlebutt, particularly with regard to OpenGL patches. And of course OpenCL is supposed to be more advanced as well. Which could be good ... or unstable.

So, what is the word?

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.lov.'s picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

I'm more interested in API changes if there are any. Seems to QC related docs/references are not updated on Apple's dev site.

cybero's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

Firstly, the GM might not be the final product, albeit close to, and according to the AppStore I have Lion installed. that said I found that OpenCL is much better , more stable, rename your kernels from Main to something more semantic and individual.

New patches are to be found , such as Facial Recognition, a nifty 2D Structure Path Image provider, a lot of Composition Repository goodies to work with Facial Recognition. There's also a great Depth of Field patch

I found I had problems with getting the iTunes Visualizer Template to protocolise a composition, albeit that the fully fledged Template gives you something you can work upon.

There's more, especially in regards of the underlying Audio Visual frameworks that make Quartz Crystal, for example, behave far more nicely and rapidly.

As I type .....

Quote:

iTunes [10.4] is now a 64-bit Cocoa application on OS X Lion and includes a number of important stability and performance improvements. Some iTunes plug-ins may no longer be compatible with this version of iTunes. Please contact the plug-in developer for an updated plug-in compatible with iTunes 10.4.

I shall update as to how this affects QC iTunes visualizers shortly.

Kineme Audio Tools, GL Tools, Kineme Core and other Kineme patches and plugins work well, including the sometimes vexed Alpha Mode plugin.

Whatever, do retain a working Snow and if you wanted to a Leopard partition also for as long as you find that to be useful.

Update - new iTunes does not support the old QC visualizers, not even Jelly or Lathe or Stix :-( . [& beta era iTunes did !].

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dust's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

i would say go for it upgrade if your computer is upgradable. if there is anything important you need you might want to check and see if there is a beta lion fix or something before you do. like something you use everyday or what ever.

if your a developer you kind of don't have a choice you have to upgrade. seems some of my apps are broken now. so I'm trying to put together some updates that i thought i where going to be a simple rebuild because they where all made in Xcode 4. i thought wrong.

i suggest to not auto modernize your old Xcode documents to new ones. this doesn't seem to work for qc stuff. like an old plugin builds fine in lion and runs fine in qc but soon as you modernize it no longer runs in qc but builds fine. seems best to just make a new Xcode project and copy the source into it rather than modernizing.

also i suggest turning off window restoring but thats just me its a great feature i run it on a few machines just not my development machine. seems to cause a few problems with various apps and create longer restart times. im kind on the border with this though it is handy feature.

all in all its the smoothest install i have ever done. still need to experiment with partitioning. just used to having a disc image i can boot from to fix things if i need to.

cybero's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

That's an interesting observation about the QC stuff & xCode modernising options. I've modernised some old projects and found that they still run fine, but I have found that being modern sometimes resulted in a non-functional build.

Also target directories don't seem to be working [always].

The iTunes Music Visualizer support has gone for .qtz files, although a Music Visualizer supporting application like Neutrino still works well with them in Lion.

BTW, are you running the GM Install or one purchased from the AppStore ?

Further update, the 32 bit mode running of iTunes 10.4 does re-enable the Quartz Composer Music Visualizer protocol from the System/Library/Compositions

gtoledo3's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

Note, the GM install comes from the app store.

Is the build number the same? I thought it is...

Peter's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

I just upgraded and luckily don't experience any issues. Some of my compositions run even faster. :)

All in all, I am very happy with Lion (so far).

gtoledo3's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

If you're working in any kind of professional / production type environment, I'd strongly suggest waiting and testing first before pushing it out, because there are many things that may be deal breakers. It's not a subtle change, and different functions have been removed (permanently), or may be broken. This goes for the OS in general, not necessarily QC.

The collada engine isn't as stable and QC will actually give exception windows on old models that used to load.

Interaction swiping is broken; when using it in programming with your own apps, the OS itself hijacks the event. Interaction is weird in that sometimes the actual object decides to pop away from the mouse click. So yeah, breakage. Definite breakage with a lot of old OpenCL stuff, and various OpenCL examples supplied with the new Dev Tools don't work either.

Stuff was crashing for me constantly for the whole pre-release phase of Lion, until I realized that on my machine, one of the GPU drivers was resulting in the constant crashes. So, putting it so that energy saver mode never comes on cleared it up, but it was a pain, and there's no real way to save your users from similar experience.

The folder system (Finder basically), has been changed by hiding folders you may be used to accessing normally.

Plugins themselves should be placed in the hidden folder (!), and authenticated. If you're lazy, you could place them in /Library and authenticate, since at least it's not friggin' hidden, but it will affect all users. If you've done any kind of thing where it seems like plugins aren't registering right, and you don't remember doing any kind of authentication (e.g., giving your admin password), look at that as a possible issue.

There's a lot of UI issues with Lion in general, but it is what it is. I'm over it.

cybero's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

Correct

cybero's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

the hidden folder .. by which you mean the User/Library/Graphics flders ?

"funnily" enough, since upgrading to iTunes 10.4, QC has ceased to load, even when not required to load any patches or plugins, I'm seriously thinking about re-installing xCode :-) .

dust's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

actually your root/library/graphics folder isn't hidden. it is still accessible through your finders go menu. go -> computer -> HD -> library is fully visible for me however go -> computer -> home - > library is hidden i guess sort of ? you can still drag it to your favorites or make an alias without specifically un hiding it .

i kind of thought there was going to be a slow move to this type of system. snow leopard moved my HD icon from my desktop which i thought was defiantly a strange move. as long as i can remember or for something like 27 years there had been a HD icon on my desktop. its no big deal make an alias put it on desktop etc.. however for people that may have been used the old file system it is a bit different.

little changes like that are funny to me. like how pre leopard i think quit used to be in file menu now it is under the app name menu. which does seem appropriate to me but people get used to things and then they are not there and freak out. like my mum calling me the other day saying i don't know how to quit safari on her new computer ? things like that are funny to me but can be frustrating to others.

however i don't think the little file system changes will be frustrating people here. what will be frustrating is deprecated code and complete api changes. changing the kernel name "main" in cl seems like an easy fix but actually for me its not. i actually have to make new kernels and rewire them in order for things to work again. must be a bug with my graphics card.

as george mentioned there is something different with dae importing. my normal methods of creating a collada file do not work anymore. thankfully blender is open source and free. i could not get mesh lab or cheetah to make a proper dae. only an old collada exporter for maya and blender seem to work for me.

dah@aber.ac.uk's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

Hi

I'm having problems with Quartz and Lion every time I try and load projects Ive created before it crashes, and when trying to create new projects certain patches don't work (like particle system, billboard, cube sprite and so on) and this message comes up.

-[__NSCFArray insertObject:atIndex:]: mutating method sent to immutable object

Could anyone shed any light on what is happening? This has only started happening since upgrading to Lion

Cheers

gtoledo3's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

Do you have a dual gpu? I had problems w/ the nVida 9400 and constant crashing, but when I go into energy saver preferences and force it to use the 9600 by choosing "best performance", QC stops crashing.

gtoledo3's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

cybero wrote:
the hidden folder .. by which you mean the User/Library/Graphics flders ?

"funnily" enough, since upgrading to iTunes 10.4, QC has ceased to load, even when not required to load any patches or plugins, I'm seriously thinking about re-installing xCode :-) .

FWIW, I did the iTunes upgrade and QC is ok.

I'd look back to plugins/patches and then maybe gpu stuff, and/or wonky compositions opening up automatically via that stupid new feature.

cybero's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

I am on an iMac with a 9400 GPU

gtoledo3's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

dust wrote:
actually your root/library/graphics folder isn't hidden. it is still accessible through your finders go menu. go -> computer -> HD -> library is fully visible for me however go -> computer -> home - > library is hidden i guess sort of ? you can still drag it to your favorites or make an alias without specifically un hiding it .

I'm talking about the home folder, where different stuff is obnoxiously hidden, not the root. Yes, you can drag it to the Finder sidebar (first activity when I loaded Lion preview some months ago... what a p.i.t.a).

Quote:
i kind of thought there was going to be a slow move to this type of system. snow leopard moved my HD icon from my desktop which i thought was defiantly a strange move.

That's still been an option in SL... was it default to not do that? It's a Finder setting. It's available in Lion as well, so you can change that to your liking :)

Quote:
as long as i can remember or for something like 27 years there had been a HD icon on my desktop. its no big deal make an alias put it on desktop etc.. however for people that may have been used the old file system it is a bit different.

You could make an alias, but I'd still go ahead and look at the built in Finder pref for that, since it's supported and will automatically show every HD.

Quote:
little changes like that are funny to me.

Though what you mention is something that's a function that hasn't been lopped out, I agree so far as it being interesting what is decided to be default behavior. Other functions have been lopped out, and sometimes it seems needless.

Quote:
like how pre leopard i think quit used to be in file menu now it is under the app name menu.

I don't think that's correct. If it is, interesting tidbit...

Quote:
which does seem appropriate to me but people get used to things and then they are not there and freak out. like my mum calling me the other day saying i don't know how to quit safari on her new computer ? things like that are funny to me but can be frustrating to others.

On that note, I was going "where the flip is my Downloads window" the first time I used Safari for a solid 10 minutes.

Downloads isn't listed as a menubar option anymore, so with the DL window not popping up in the back, it not able to be called up via menu, you have to be looking in the top right hand corner, to the little down arrow button to figure out that the new download drawer is there. That said, I actually prefer the new drawer (I think). It would have been nice to maybe have had a prompt the first time around or something, or still have it be accessible via the menu (I think it's a bug that it isn't, though it's also a drawer and not a window now, so it may be weird from a human interface perspective now).

Quote:
however i don't think the little file system changes will be frustrating people here.

It's frustrating from the perspective that they took something that there wasn't a problem with and made it more difficult because of some kind of hair brained notions.

Quote:
what will be frustrating is deprecated code and complete api changes. changing the kernel name "main" in cl seems like an easy fix but actually for me its not.

Well, that wasn't ever correct to begin with. That sucks, but now it actually adheres to the real CL api. It's unfortunate... it would have seemed appropriate to actually MAKE A NEW VERSION OF THE CL PATCH WHILE KEEPING THE OLD ONE (ALA GL TOOLS DEPRECATED PATCHES) SO THAT WHEN OLD COMPOSITIONS OPEN THEY COULD OPEN AND STILL WORK, AND WE COULD GET PROMPTED TO UPGRADE TO THE NEW VERSION OF THE PATCH.

That probably wouldn't work because of the fact that they OLD CL framework would have to hang around, I think.

I don't think that Apple takes OpenCL seriously or particularly cares if the breakages impact people negatively, because it's only a handful of people it probably would effect badly.

Quote:
i actually have to make new kernels and rewire them in order for things to work again. must be a bug with my graphics card.

Did you do an "upgrade" install, upgrading over past previews?

If you have any thing super weird going on, I'd suggest trying out a totally fresh install onto a totally blank partition.

The graphics card probably isn't causing that...but you never know. I'd try changing out the main name, save or save as. Then try to run it. If you still have problems reboot your computer (yeah, I know, ridiculous), and try the composition again.

Quote:
as george mentioned there is something different with dae importing. my normal methods of creating a collada file do not work anymore.

Whoever is doing the collada stuff really sucks, as I filed a bug on that with the first (or maybe second?) preview. It doesn't support collada's that were supported in SL since day 1, are made with major apps, and only loads a small subset. That's something used not only by QC, but by Finder, Preview, and probably others.

TO ADD INSULT TO INJURY, after awhile, the QC Editor app will balk and throw an exception.

Quote:
thankfully blender is open source and free. i could not get mesh lab or cheetah to make a proper dae. only an old collada exporter for maya and blender seem to work for me.

Yep.

On a more meta level, the OS itself isn't like getting an ice-pick in the eye, but it feels amateur-esque and incomplete, as though it's the kid's chance to make an OS. The Mission Control and Launchpad either had a lack of thought, or a tremendous amount of low quality thought behind them. It's basically a superficial and incomplete/broken iOS-like mode that's been layered in. That's pretty much the biggest feature of the OS, along with all of the stuff they've lopped out (which I think, to them, constitutes "feature").

gtoledo3's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

cybero wrote:
I am on an iMac with a 9400 GPU

I can't get QC to not crash when I use the 9400 GPU on my macbook pro... I have to flip the the 9600. I've seen other people complain of similar issue with the 9400, though not necessarily with QC. It seems as though the driver that's being used doesn't work correctly.

Mind you, this was a known issue before Lion was released.

cybero's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

Well that clears up the iTunes association [what about the visualizers situation?] .

I've cleared out all Patch and Plugin folders that are non defaults. I even had a Crash Report saying KinemeCore was loaded and responsible even after it had been moved - weird. I moved all the (Disabled) folders out and am still finding that QC is bugging out after a fresh install of xCode. I only have a 9400 GPU.

If the 9400 GPU situation is insurmountable the although I am still finding that much QC supporting applications are still working AOK, I'll probably be switching between 10.7 & 10.6.8, especially for QC work.

gtoledo3's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

cybero wrote:
Well that clears up the iTunes association [what about the visualizers situation?] .

I've cleared out all Patch and Plugin folders that are non defaults. I even had a Crash Report saying KinemeCore was loaded and responsible even after it had been moved - weird. I moved all the (Disabled) folders out and am still finding that QC is bugging out after a fresh install of xCode. I only have a 9400 GPU.

If the 9400 GPU situation is insurmountable the although I am still finding that much QC supporting applications are still working AOK, I'll probably be switching between 10.7 & 10.6.8, especially for QC work.

I guess QC visualizers went away... which makes me sad that I updated to the new iTunes, but I guess I would have to update sooner or later anyway.

I really don't have any good feeling about the 9400 and am surprised QC wasn't already crashing constantly given my own experiences and reports I've seen. I guess it might be worth seeing if you could replace the driver with an old one, but that feels super-funky, and might cause other problems.

I would consider actually rebooting when the problem is potentially GPU related, as crazy as that sounds.

smokris's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

dah@aber.ac.uk wrote:
I'm having problems with Quartz and Lion every time I try and load projects Ive created before it crashes, and when trying to create new projects certain patches don't work (like particle system, billboard, cube sprite and so on) and this message comes up.

-[__NSCFArray insertObject:atIndex:]: mutating method sent to immutable object

Some old kineme.net plugins cause errors like that on Lion, though I believe it's been fixed in the latest version of all plugins. Check whether all your plugins are up-to-date, and if you're still getting the error, try to isolate which plugin it's coming from (remove all plugins, then add one back and open the composition, et c).

cybero's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

LOL, think I may have stumbled upon the root cause of the problem. I am holding my breath on this until I've downloaded and installed the latest xCode, which I thought I'd done, but it's been updated as of the 20th of this month. Will post an update as soon as I really do know.

Update

Latest xCode 4.1 installed - and still crashing. Crash Report attached.

mattgolsen's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

I had similar crashes in QC when I first installed Lion/XCode. Trashed all my Cache files, moved ALL plugins in any Graphics folders out, relaunched, worked fine.

To Unhide The Library Folder Run the following in Terminal

chflags nohidden /Users/USERNAME/Library

gtoledo3's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

mattgolsen wrote:
I had similar crashes in QC when I first installed Lion/XCode. Trashed all my Cache files, moved ALL plugins in any Graphics folders out, relaunched, worked fine.

To Unhide The Library Folder Run the following in Terminal

chflags nohidden /Users/USERNAME/Library

Multiple things can cause the crashes. For instance, I've had plugins and patches cause crashes, as well as the GPU issue (which causes QC to crash stock).

dust's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

thanks george. finder preferences puts my HD back. i guess that sounded pretty asinine. heck i didn't even think the finder had preferences.

how does one do a clean fresh install of lion ? the app store says i have lion installed already and greys out any install options. booting off a 10.6 disc and erase installing 10.6 upgrade that to 10.6.8 then re download and install lion on top of 10.6 defiantly seems like long way of doing things. bad enough you got download and install lion but snow leopard as well.

i think i am missing something important or something does't make any sense. is lion an operating system at all or is it a fancy face lift of snow leopard ? why does it require snow leopard ? why can i not order a disc ? what happens if you don't have the internet ?

don't think I'm crazy plenty of people do not have internet or acceptable internet connection to download operating system discs. I'm not talking about the people that can not afford the internet. I'm talking about the people that live in rural areas.

until light squared lte satellite is approved people in rural areas do not have access to broadband. who knows if it will ever get approved. people are saying light squared will bankrupt all existing internet providers if they don't partner up with them. which may be true... why am i going to pay time warner and at&t when i can have faster service every where i go at a fraction of the cost.

i do have a few systems that will run lion that do have disc drives in them. certainly i don't use my disc drive for anything but installing the operating system or fixing an operating system.

i want to be able to install from a disc image or partitioned drive as well. i don't want to have to install snow leopard on a partition then install lion onto that partition just to be able to fix my drive permissions.

without a disc or disc image you can boot off lion seems like it is just a update to snow leopard.

i must be missing something incredibly stupid like my finder preferences. am i all wrong here ?

got to quote george on this one..

Quote:
the OS itself isn't like getting an ice-pick in the eye

with all that stated change is necessary. lion is faster. i finally got the four finger pinch in gesture down. you just pinch in with four finger ever so slightly touching the pad and everything is smooth. don't know why that was so difficult for me before ?

gtoledo3's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

dust wrote:
lion is faster.

This isn't aimed at just you, but everyone that inevitably says things like this at any OS release:

Tests please. If you have no test/stats or context, it's not real in my opinion, or can just as easily be placebo.

dust's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

sorry let me rephrase that. open cl performs better in lion. i have no bench mark test data... this purely an observation based hypothesis rooted in what i call the "crash dummy test". the "crash dummy test" is how many particles can i load up until my computer crashes. it is many more in lion. as i stated above i think window restoring slows things down but again that is contextually subjective.

dust's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

all i did to get my user library visible was drag and drop it from the finder window to my favorites. by typing...

open ~/library

in the terminal.

as you see in the pic my library is still greyed out via the paths option. but the footer paths is not (see other pic). i did not specifically un hide anything i just dragged it to my favorite places from the bread crumb footer or what ever its called.

defiantly odd behavior and might be an oversight ? i would think if a folder is hidden it should not be accessible via favorites unless you explicitly say unhide via the above mentioned method.

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dah@aber.ac.uk's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

Cheers all finally managed to get it all working again found the funny plugin Again Cheers

gtoledo3's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

FWIW, one doesn't actually have to unhide anything via Terminal to get there, though it's hidden by default.

If you open Finder, and use the "Go"/"Go To Folder" option and type "~/Library", the Finder will reveal it, and show it unhidden. Kinda quirky.

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itsthejayj's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

To make /Users/Library visible, hold down the "Option/Alt" key, and choose "Go to Library" in the Go menu of the Finder.

dust's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

that also works to select audio interfaces as well. option clicking on volume in the finder.

gtoledo3's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

itsthejayj wrote:
To make /Users/Library visible, hold down the "Option/Alt" key, and choose "Go to Library" in the Go menu of the Finder.
wtf. Seriously, why do I have to grope for this stuff now?

gtoledo3's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

Has anyone figured out how to stop the autosave stuff yet (system wide, not QC)?

I'd like to know that, if anyone is privy. In QC, there's an option+preference, but I haven't really used it or tested it yet, since QC was crashing a lot in Lion for me and I wanted my preferences to be default just in case.

dust's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

system preferences -> general -> restore windows = off. and shutdown -> do not restore windows.

this works however if you crash it does not work it only works when you quit. there must be a boot kernel extension or something where you can flag to always not restore windows.

Peter's picture
Re: The Lion roars to life, what about QC

Dangit. I made my statement too early. :(

Some of my compositions seem to be broken under 10.7 when running on two screens and only when running embedded into a screen saver application. More specific, the sample & hold patch seems to be the source of evil for me at the moment.

(hair pull out)...

Did anyone see some crash like the one attached?

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