...is it possible, re: Safari

gtoledo3's picture

.... is it possible to have a plugin for Safari that would let you see a qtz render if it relies on a plugin... a plugin to make Safari load plugins I guess?

cwright's picture
Re: ...is it possible, re: Safari

it's possible, but a lot of work. It's much easier to just make plugins declare themselves as safe (or make safemode hacks) -- To date, we've disabled safari specifically for all safemode hacks because of security risks. However, unofficial-api plugins (like GLTools) work in safari Right Now.

Eventually, we're planning on making KinemeCore dole out safe mode permissions dynamically based on the host all and user settings (so you could temporarily enable everything in safari for a demo, then revert to paranoid mode for day-to-day usage).

usefuldesign.au's picture
Re: ...is it possible, re: Safari

That sounds very cool (and a little complex!). What exactly is safemode and where does it reside, in safari or the .qtz files or elsewhere. (Apologies for dumb-designer style question in advance).

cwright's picture
Re: ...is it possible, re: Safari

Safemode is a mode that QC can operate in. In Safemode, QC will normally not load official-api plugins, and will not load "unsafe" patches (patches that can access files or system inputs, such as the iSight or microphone). Safemode is used in applications such as Safari, QuickTime, and Modul8.

Normally this is a Good Thing -- it prevents malicious compositions on the web from uploading all your photos, or broadcating a video of yourself without you knowing, among other possibly bad things. However, there are cases where, if you know and understand the risks, you want to disable safemode (have everything work as it does in QC) -- this isn't possible out of the box in QC.

We've done enough work to figure out how to modify how safemode works, and have done a fair amount of safemode tweaking with some custom plugins. However, those are sloppy, and don't provide the flexibility that putting it all in KinemeCore would.

dust's picture
Re: ...is it possible, re: Safari

how do you run QC in safe mode ? i was thinking of trying to make some sort of webkit plugin do you think that is possible ?

cwright's picture
Re: ...is it possible, re: Safari

you can't run QC itself in safemode. However, the framework is designed so that it's able to run in safemode in other apps (like Safari).

To see what unsafe patches your composition is using, select the "Indicate Unsafe Patches" item from the Editor menu in Quartz Composer -- unsafe patches will get branded with a yellow exclamation mark (or a key or something like that).

gtoledo3's picture
Re: ...is it possible, re: Safari

Is file loading (like loading a 3D model) something that is Safe Mode related?

Let me back up about 5 steps, because what leads me to have asked this question is a scenario...

So.

I always find something viscerally appealing about having this large Safari browser space, and being able to just drag a qtz onto it and have it render and play nice with the mouse, etc. For as much as I do that, I almost never preview qtz's in Safari while actually surfing the web. So, my usage is probably kind of weird compared to average.

In messing around with that, what suggests itself as something really nice, is the way you can make a Bookmark folder that organizes all the filepaths of the qtz's you drag onto it, and you can also just click on them and have them open if it renders in Safari, of course. The other caveat is that you see that ultra_lame_quicktime preview scroll bar crap thing that totally ruins the visual experience.

Furthermore, when I look at the Safari Top Sites screen, it about drives me wild with the suggestion of being able to be a preview setup for qtz's, and then being able to "launch" them. If you drop a qtz onto a top site, it will start playing, but it can't seem to store it as a Top Site, while you can successfully store a qtz as a normal bookmark.

I remember the idea of an iTunes for qtz's type of thing bandied about, and the whole interface of Safari is almost entirely ideal... but not quite it.

Really, even if you could store the bookmarks in Safari or something similar and then make the qtz's launch into Quartz Composer (an "Open With" instead of just "Open"), it would be a heck of an organizing tool. A qtz could populate multiple bookmark lists and not actually be copied twice...

usefuldesign.au's picture
Re: ...is it possible, re: Safari

THere's some good thinkin' there. Hope Kineme can close the final mile on that one.

gtoledo3's picture
Re: ...is it possible, re: Safari

I was surprised that the Top Sites setup file is elusive for Safari... I can't find it at least, not that I've done anything other than look for it in raw form. I don't think it's in the app as a qtz, though it looks extremely similar to other things Apple has setup with Quartz, with the mouse following blue frame highlight, little url display at the bottom, and reflection.

I could actually see a great deal of the functionality being able to be pulled off in Quartz Builder more or less, save for the concept of the bookmark lists, and storing them (maybe you could store a directory file in text or something... haven't thought about it too much)... the Top Sites thing is definitely doable in Quartz.

My only caveat about the way that Top Sites works is that you should be able to hit on the top or bottom, or right and left of the app window, and make it exchange banks of sites. I guess the idea is that 12 is all you would want, and that it's "Top" Sites, not an actual file preview browser... but I think it's nice. I like it better than the Coverflow concept, if you set a thing like Top Sites up to switch banks, because you can clearly see all of the file previews. I'm kind of "all about" making these kind of menu setups the past few days... I find it oddly intriguing.

Opera is a browser that I used to use years ago because of it's start page feature that reminded me of Spaces but in a cool web oriented way... giving a "start page" of previews of web pages like Safari does now. Opera has a dry look though, and I prefer the way it looks in Safari, even if it did take a loooong time for them to finally do it.

cybero's picture
Re: ...is it possible, re: Safari

gtoledo3 wrote:

My only caveat about the way that Top Sites works is that you should be able to hit on the top or bottom, or right and left of the app window, and make it exchange banks of sites. I guess the idea is that 12 is all you would want, and that it's "Top" Sites, not an actual file preview browser... but I think it's nice.

Actually, if you hit the Edit button, you can set the page size to small and have up to 24 pages in a full screen browser window.

As for the whereabouts of the TopSite facility, more on that later :-)

gtoledo3's picture
Re: ...is it possible, re: Safari

cybero wrote:
gtoledo3 wrote:

My only caveat about the way that Top Sites works is that you should be able to hit on the top or bottom, or right and left of the app window, and make it exchange banks of sites. I guess the idea is that 12 is all you would want, and that it's "Top" Sites, not an actual file preview browser... but I think it's nice.

Actually, if you hit the Edit button, you can set the page size to small and have up to 24 pages in a full screen browser window.

As for the whereabouts of the TopSite facility, more on that later :-)

Yeah, I didn't give due credit to the small/medium/large tab control.

It had seemed to me that all of the top sites resources (the images) are there in the app, and that the actual Top Site thing is just part of the main executable file or the "Safari Webpage Preview Fetcher" executable.

In addition to the the idea of bank switching, it's also interesting to set something up like this so that you can do a two finger scroll, and the windows populate.

I like the way that the previews were curved like this. That's excellent I think; a great pseudo depth.

The "Top Sites" is in a font that looks very similar to Helvetica bold, but it's not.

I feel that Helvetica bold would have been a better choice; the lowercase "e" would look better, and the bottom side of the two "s"'s wouldn't look clipped. The bottom loop of the lowercase "e" making the curve that it does has a bad look, especially when placed by the preceding lowercase "t". It has irregular weight and spacing.

Then the bottoms of the "s"'s almost look like they've had pixels masked by mistake, but it's actually just the look of the font. I also think that the capital "S" and lowercase "e" in the phrase "Search History" look too close together, because of the same choice in font. It's a weak font.

It's fun to watch the little push pin things redraw if you toggle from large to small really quick. It's odd how the previews will already be in place, yet the push pins have the load time. It only happens if you go from bigger to smaller sizes, not the other way around.

cwright's picture
Re: ...is it possible, re: Safari

gtoledo3 wrote:
I feel that Helvetica bold would have been a better choice; the lowercase "e" would look better, and the bottom side of the two "s"'s wouldn't look clipped. The bottom loop of the lowercase "e" making the curve that it does has a bad look, especially when placed by the preceding lowercase "t". It has irregular weight and spacing.

Then the bottoms of the "s"'s almost look like they've had pixels masked by mistake, but it's actually just the look of the font. I also think that the capital "S" and lowercase "e" in the phrase "Search History" look too close together, because of the same choice in font. It's a weak font.

First rule of kineme.net is "don't talk about fonts". You'll get smokris started, and then it never stops ;) First person to mention descenders gets a million negative points :) (not really though)

gtoledo3's picture
Re: ...is it possible, re: Safari

Fonts were a hotly discussed topic in my household while growing up. What can I say? I feel warm and fuzzy about smokris's similar feelings about that. I had read that part of his bio but forgot.

I am a big Helvetica fan! It has excellent balance, and spacing between characters tends to just "look right" with none too close or too far in appearance from each other.

I laughed when I first saw the puny little "Top Sites" written up at the top of that page in Safari. It definitely doesn't ADD anything. It looks like a sad afterthought... like, "well, the page should be labelled, and there needs to be balance to the url listing below the previews". If it's going to look like that, it should really just be negative space, nothing should be written there at all, and the curve of the pages could have been shallower.

It wasn't very well conceived for the interaction to work so that when you are in "History"/Coverflow mode, when you click the word "History" at the top, it returns you to Top Sites. Why, when you can hit back on the browser? If it's going to work like that, then clicking "Top Sites" should, by reasonable conclusion/parallel function, bring you back to the last page you were viewing before calling up "Top Sites". Yet, it does nothing except for laugh back at you with it's lack of function, and lack of aesthetic quality.

Ho-hum, off to file the pertinent bug reports :) {that would be truly audacious}

dust's picture
Re: ...is it possible, re: Safari

to serif or not that is the question ?

usefuldesign.au's picture
Re: ...is it possible, re: Safari

useful design just likes drawing fenestration wrote:
Quote:
gtoledo3 wrote:
cybero wrote:
gtoledo3 wrote:

My only caveat about the way that Top Sites works is that you should be able to hit on the top or bottom, or right and left of the app window, and make it exchange banks of sites. I guess the idea is that 12 is all you would want, and that it's "Top" Sites, not an actual file preview browser... but I think it's nice.

Actually, if you hit the Edit button, you can set the page size to small and have up to 24 pages in a full screen browser window.

As for the whereabouts of the TopSite facility, more on that later :-)

The "Top Sites" is in a font that looks very similar to Helvetica bold, but it's not.

I feel that Helvetica bold would have been a better choice; the lowercase "e" would look better, and the bottom side of the two "s"'s wouldn't look clipped. The bottom loop of the lowercase "e" making the curve that it does has a bad look, especially when placed by the preceding lowercase "t". It has irregular weight and spacing.

Then the bottoms of the "s"'s almost look like they've had pixels masked by mistake, but it's actually just the look of the font. I also think that the capital "S" and lowercase "e" in the phrase "Search History" look too close together, because of the same choice in font. It's a weak font.

Quote:

Correct. At first I thought you were taking the piss of how some Apple consumer connoisseurs go over Apple product with reverential devotion.

I came across this software programmer's blog by someone into fonts and he was bagging Apple for getting a screen font made (Lucida Grande) which reads really well on LCDs at small sizes but prints worse the Helvetica. Then in some of their own apps (can't remember which ones might have been filemaker come to think) they enforce the use of Helvetica on screen and printing gets Lucida Grande which is a double bad in his book. It bugs me Lucida Grande 'font family-o-2" has no italic instance. Every time I'm writing an email and need italics have to change fonts mid-stream. You'd think Apple could have shelled the extra out for an italics wouldn't you?

So from this image i think it's obvious it's the antialiasing (or whatever) on type doing the damage to bottom edge. I love how you go once to some random website and there it is on your top sites for everybody to see for the next day or so, "yeah like I'm not really into that stuff it just popped up… (believable not)"

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gtoledo3's picture
Re: ...is it possible, re: Safari

L to the OL.

I'm not taking a "piss-take", I'm totally genuine in my thought process on this. There is the issue of the sliced/masked pixels (which don't look like they should, as in the .png you post where they look correct), and then my own feeling about the font in general, which is more subjective.

I will grant that I see the value in having a font that is specific to the operating system, though I'm not a fan of the Lucida family. The reason for that is in the design of the lower case "a" and "e". The font has a neutral, slightly informal feel that's not horrible. Given certain factors, I could see picking Lucida, or maybe doing a custom with a similar feel.

I am reverentially devoted :) I'm just opinionated. I also try to think of the opposite argument for whatever my conclusion is, because a different conclusion doesn't necessarily betray a true difference of opinion as much as it betrays a difference in criteria by which something is being judged. So, if I find something I really dislike, I actually try to formulate the argument for it, so that I can at least potentially broaden my perspective, even if I ultimately don't agree with the thought process.

I hope the Top Sites ends up getting a fix on the weird pixel chop, but I'm not expecting the default system font to change anytime soon :)

It's nice to hear that someone else out there has the same opinion though. As far as the fact of Lucida Grande not having an italic instance goes, many times one would use a Lucida handwriting style in lieu of an italic, but that looks more appropriate in print than on a computer.

Yeah, the "auto-populate" capability of Top Sites could possibly lead to some amusing scenarios. There is a good comedy sketch lurking in there somewhere.

usefuldesign.au's picture
Re: ...is it possible, re: Safari

gtoledo3 wrote:

I am reverentially devoted :) I'm just opinionated. I also try to think of the opposite argument for whatever my conclusion is, because a different conclusion doesn't necessarily betray a true difference of opinion as much as it betrays a difference in criteria by which something is being judged. So, if I find something I really dislike, I actually try to formulate the argument for it, so that I can at least potentially broaden my perspective, even if I ultimately don't agree with the thought process.

Well I guess I'm some what devoted because when I go into Wintel studios they think every comment I make is a dis to Windows and a vote for Mactel (that sounds totally wrong doesn't it showing the strength of the Mac name) – even when it it's not (it isn't always the case, I know a 3D artist with multi-cores PCs fast and RAMed out that cost a fraction of a Mac Pro so how can I argue with that if he lives in Lightwave?).

Another thing 2 things that annoy me about Lucida, very crap default kerning table looks monospaced at times and over tight at others; the option-hyphen (short dash) which in most good fonts is between hypen length and (long dash) is just plain hyphen "-, –, —" :).

gtoledo3 wrote:
Yeah, the "auto-populate" capability of Top Sites could possibly lead to some amusing scenarios. There is a good comedy sketch lurking in there somewhere.
Great thanks for that sentiment! I spend part of every day writing material in my head that I will never use now I have a new brief.

That guy's crit for Apple font implementation may have been about iPhone text can't remember any more.

Oh and on Helvetica one of my fellow Melburnians wrote a treatise against the mindless application of Helvetica and it's wrong-side-of-the-sheet offspring like Swiss. Check it:

http://www.letterbox.net.au/research/res_texts_bold.html "Get spat on by people in black skivvies with this response to the prevelance of Helvetica." http://www.letterbox.net.au/store/store_tshirts.html

Also George, here's a picture of a lane near Stephen's old studio that coincidentally I totally mistook as the location in a QTVR (I think) I saw on your mySpace page when I first started checking out things Quartz Composer. I was like, that mysterious gtoledo3 dude is from my town, how cool... (how wrong). http://www.helveticafilm.com/newblog/2007/07/