Kineme 3D - Animation files

s.rozsa's picture

just a quick question: what would be the best way to use animated objects with Kineme3d? We are using inhouse Maya and Max for 3d work. So we would use FBX as an export format.

But what would be the best workflow to let's say: import an animated fish in the "boid-fisch" Particle example? How can i use the animation data correctly? We have made a quick and dirty animated fish (simple bones animation) and exported that as FBX. I can load the file fine in QC but it is only a static object.

I'm upping the FBX for "examination"....

Any help is highly appreciated.

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T1.fbx_.zip58.52 KB

cwright's picture
Re: Kineme 3D - Animation files

Unfortunately, there is no skeletal animation support in Kineme3D at this time, so you won't be able to make use of it yet.

The simplest way to accomplish animation presently is to have several discreet frames/poses, and blend between them (as done in the Knight vs. Goblin demo).

s.rozsa's picture
Re: Kineme 3D - Animation files

thanks Chris, so that would mean that i have to do some keyframes in the animation? The goblin md2 is importet with a structure. Are the members in this structure the keyframes? Or is that a kind of "multi object" thing? Sorry for dumb questions, but we are not used to export 3d data for realtime usage so I'm not quite sure about the correct workflow ;-)

Also an important question: if i would like to import that stuff as a particle source - than i have to use the "object blend"? In your goblin example you are using the "blend renderer"...

TIA

cwright's picture
Re: Kineme 3D - Animation files

right, it's all keyframes. MD2's contain several poses, so those all get imported as objects -- FBX, 3DS, and most other formats also support multi-object files, and Kineme3D will load all of them (you're right, each member of the structure is a keyframe).

When blending, your objects Must have the same number of faces, and ideally the same number of vertices as well. MD2 is good at preserving this (because it's required), but other formats aren't as strict (you have to know how to use them -- I don't, so I can't offer any advice on that).

gtoledo3's picture
Re: Kineme 3D - Animation files

Everything that Chris has stated is correct for obvious reasons. I will add some thoughts to the discussion.

Quartz Composer is, in it's own way, an animation environment. I view it as a "multimedia development tool", and at it's heart it is probably best viewed as a presentation format, with considerable tools for manipulation.

Animation in General:

The Developer folder, and the Developer website both have excellent examples of how to use the tools of Quartz Composer, to achieve "movement" and animation. You want to search out a download called "QC Fundamentals" and another called "Quartz Composer Sample Patches", both available as downloads from Apple. This will probably give you some interesting ideas about how to "animate" with QC, as well, as well as bring to mind other concepts.

With Kineme3D:

Everything Chris has said totally applies. However, there are other ways to approach something.

Your case is kind of atypical, because it sounds like you are attempting "animation" with the Kineme3D function of particle tools. In a sense, if you want to "animate" with that, EVERY parameter is an animation function. All of the particle tools controls are animation tools.

Now, if you want to actually "animate" the static object- the particle tools renderer DOESN'T feature blend capability. So, that's kinda out the door.

What you can do, is think about what a fish "does". It bends, it and it twists every so often. So, with that in mind, you would probably want to attempt a couple things (which were actually the FIRST things I did when getting the last particle tools, because I wanted to add this effect to the sample composition for my own visual satisfactions)... what you do is, you experiment with putting in a bend and twist patch in the Kineme3D chain.

Bending and twisting too strongly, will begin to deform the fish WAY too much to achieve anything resembling natural motion. Subtle ranges (5~10⁰) will be more apropos. You hook up an lfo or interpolation patch to "animate" the bend and wriggles...(or to get more advanced, timeline or value historian).

Here is an example file... I actually have plenty more to chime in on this, except it is a deep, deep subject, and I think this is a good place to cut off this message so it is "easily digestable".

It is my desire to actually approach some "QC animation" and other QC concepts somewhat systematically, with examples. I'm just trying to figure out how I keep stuff from getting strewn in a million different threads around the "internets", and keep it all in one easily referenced location... guess it's time for a website, I dunno...

To briefly go into some of the stuff I plan on trying to cover- triggering animation pose sequences/loops in reliable ways, using multi-structure objects in creative ways, using value historian to record and then trigger motion sequences, using audio as an animation tools, and using non traditional methods like motion and camera detection to aid in animation techniques.

franz's picture
Re: Kineme 3D - Animation files / Fish Blend

Hi, i would personnally make 3 different models based on the same initial fish - as to be sure to have the same number of faces/vertex in every object. The 3 models would be based on the attached drawing.

Then i would use the blend modifier and chain the 3 models, and sync everything to some Interpolation of LFO patches. Since the Blend modifier is CPU based, this would be OK to pipe the output object to your particle scene.

For a nice effect, i would read about fishes'spec. http://www.biology-resources.com/drawing-fish-swimming.html

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gtoledo3's picture
Re: Kineme 3D - Animation files / Fish Blend

Oh, I forgot about the blend modifier. 'Doh. But remember it will only blend between two objects...

To me though... for something so simple as this deform, it makes more sense just to do it in QC- you would basically have to do the same exact thing in your given modeling program, and come out with two or three static poses, and then have to blend... for all of that, you can just load a single model (cutting down on start up time, making the comp run faster as well), and probably achieve a more organic look.

No argument though, because I think that franz's suggestion is more in line with what would typically be done in other programs, and is EXACTLY what you want to do in many situations...

It's worth noting that you could setup various interpolates/lfo's, even value historians to supply warp, or x/y/z translation, or rotation sequences- and have them run in loop, mirror loop, single shot, whatever- hook all of those options up to a multiplexer, and then trigger the desired movement sequence by triggering the applicable index value with another method- again- either interpolation, timeline, lfo, or value historian.

s.rozsa's picture
Re: Kineme 3D - Animation files

Hey Guys - thanks for the very detailed explanations! But probably i did not expressed myself very clear - doh! i'm not a native speaker/writer. Anyhow: i do not want to use QC or the Particle System as an animation tool - and as George states very well, i am using QC "only" as a type of "interactive presentation solution"...

Basically what i want to make is allmost done in the "kineme3d-boidfish.qtz" supplyed with the particle tools. With the exception that i would like to use a pre-animated fish insted of the static md2 model in the original.

The animation is done in Maya or Max - so that is no problem. The problem is, that if i export the animation file as an FBX from Maya or from Max, only one structure member will be exported. I have examined the "goblin" example: the md2 files used there are containing apparently several times the same model information (at least there are over 100 structure members). Till now i did not found a way to export the animation in this manner from Max or Maya. What i will try to do later today is to export the object in his different states and reimport the states in Max as morph-targets - that "could" maybe work... (unless somebody has some other/better tipps...)

Blending the animation steps for the particle system: well this setup i am uploading now should work. I have tested that with the goblin model - just exchange the model import with the goblin.md2 and you will see nice animated goblins in the particle system...

Oh: please consider that the fish is only a 5 minutes ani-sketch - should not be viewed as my artistic goal ;-))))

George an Franz: thanks again! An i will take a look at your fish exaple right now....

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fish.zip1.19 MB

franz's picture
Re: Kineme 3D - Animation files

Export as many morph targets as you can/want. Then use multiple blend patches. It doesn't really matter if you have 1 file per model, or all the models in the same file. The latter is just more convenient when you have multiple targets.

gtoledo3's picture
Re: Kineme 3D - Animation files

The animated goblin particles crack me up... when they lump all over each other, it feels very Matrix like :o)

s.rozsa's picture
Re: Kineme 3D - Animation files

LOL, well sice you are so much in making fancy QC movie features: you could add an animated Neo character as an Explosion force and see what will happen ;-)