KnM 3D / render in image flicker

Hi, i'm having problems using KnM3D FBX mesh loader and renderer, when used in a render in image patch. The whole object is flickering, when shadows are enabled.

See the attached example comparing apple's stock teapot and a FBX teapot, exported straight from 3dsmax.

Is it hardware related ? i tested on a Geforce 9600M and a 9400M. Can anyone confirm ?

Thanks in advance.

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LIGHTINGbug.zip98.05 KB

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gtoledo3's picture
Re: KnM 3D / render in image flicker

I don't get any problem with that - no flicker. Testing on 9600M/9400M.

What is a known bug though is trying to do the same thing with a K3D deformer in the chain, which will cause that flicker or normals breaking sometimes.

cybero's picture
Re: KnM 3D / render in image flicker

This is reproducible with all the model types you can throw in and is part of what arguably needs to be improved upon within the supporting frameworks.

Failing that it would have to be a GLSL shader that acts as a blusher to these unfortunate 'cracks' in the fascia, or perhaps a plugin that provides proper support for that level of graphical detail and subtlety.

BTW, I get a kind of flicker, not quite so strong, off the Apple teapot & I have tried re-meshing and smoothing and not simplifying and also altering the light attenuation and position. Still provokable, even when placed within a GLSL textured shader, that does, admittedly, help to reduce the flicker resulting..

franz's picture
Re: KnM 3D / render in image flicker

thanks for confirming. However, i don't have any flicking with the apple teapot, and heavy flick with KnM.

cybero's picture
Re: KnM 3D / render in image flicker

It's the Lighting Environment being set to run dark shadows , a feature which has previously been reported as slightly problematic and also a a bit of an fps brake. As soon as I set the Shadows to nought on an nVidia 9400M, got no such reproduction of problem with the whole construct placed within a Vertex Noise shader set to virtually nil movement upon the shader variables.

Afterthought, just been running the example you posted through some different shaders and all told, the exercise has done nothing less than remind me of how unpredictable and varying the results can sometimes be.

gtoledo3's picture
Re: KnM 3D / render in image flicker

I'm using the latest beta, fwiw.

cybero's picture
Re: KnM 3D / render in image flicker

Probably explains the difference, [ ATI related OpenCL support would be great ] :-) .

I wonder when and if the Audio API for Safari will start to show forth, the Mozilla Audio API is really nice to play around with and has some seriously useful means of application especially as you can just generate audio sounds on the fly, straight out of code which is like so cool in a browser [ totally reminiscent of demoscene floppy disk levels of low level programming going on, loving that ] . Enriches and enables the interface.

Ah, the latest Kineme beta, :-)

franz's picture
Re: KnM 3D / render in image flicker

BRILLIANT ! the latest beta did solve my problem. Thx Georges !!!!

gtoledo3's picture
Re: KnM 3D / render in image flicker

Awesome... smoothing might still be broken with shadows and certain deformers, but faceted look should always be "ok" (I think?).

I noted this flash bulb business a long time ago when SL was in pre-release, and I was trying to make some cool shadow renders, and also use zoom blur CI to smooth out the crap look of the shadows. It was really maddening!

... OT, but I've been wanting to bring this up - it would be cool if you could expand on your process for modeling the "bullet to the head" face morph stuff. If you have any cool base sets, it would be greatly appreciated... or even heads up on where to look for good ones (I really can't find much, and I've looked quite a bit... I think I'm just not looking in the right places, or there isn't anything out there really). Did you model it totally from scratch, or start from some basic expressions that were already modeled?

franz's picture
Re: KnM 3D / render in image flicker

for face modelling, i do model myself -or have an intern do it for me- . I used to run an architectural vfx company (before 1024), so i have quite an experience at modelling.

You can either start with a basic head from the net (not recommended tho'), or model low poly (starting from a box). Or even take front/face photos and start modelling from here. Eventually, you could use a scripted primitive as a starting point....

The modelling part is time taking (compared to the QC part). A good head is at least 2/3 days hard work. Count 2 more days for detailed ears and tongue (which i skip)

The texturing part is semi-automatic, called "unwrapping", using builtin tools or scripts like texporter. Then from a basic head, you make different poses (aka morph targets). There's a modifier in 3dsmax especially for this, called "morpher".

Then morph targets are exported as FBX (or DAE) meshes.

In 1024 studio, all the modelling is done on windows. If you're stuck to osx, the best app is definetly Maya, but it has an ultra-ultra-long learning curve. If you're unfamiliar with maya (or can't afford it), maybe blender can be an option. Some blender tuts: http://www.alfonsi.org/wizardnx/headtut_e.htm http://www.blendercookie.com/2010/01/28/topology-overview-the-head/

As for samples, as far as i remember, i gave Chris' some head files for KnM 3d morph demo. They should be somewhere, in the example files. (maybe the initial ones)

Attached is a snapshot of some head i'm working on, atm and the head in QC-action : Euphorie on 1024 blog

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gtoledo3's picture
Re: KnM 3D / render in image flicker

FWIW, I should have given more info... I know the basic process of morph target animation, use Blender for most stuff and Sketchup. I used to have a job where one task involved doing support for Autodesk products for a few Architecture and Engineering companies, so I'm fairly well familiar with all of the products... but wherever they were at a couple years back ;-)

I thought your files ended up really excellent looking, so I've been curious about your process in particular (moreso than ultra basics, but it's always nice to get a rundown)....

franz wrote:
for face modelling, i do model myself -or have an intern do it for me- . I used to run an architectural vfx company (before 1024), so i have quite an experience at modelling.

You can either start with a basic head from the net (not recommended tho'), or model low poly (starting from a box). Or even take front/face photos and start modelling from here. Eventually, you could use a scripted primitive as a starting point....

That's one major thing I was wondering what your perspective would be on... if you were starting from total scratch. I've noticed some pretty largish facial morph sets, with tons of expressions; I've dithered back and forth about whether I think that would be a better starting point, and was curious for your take.

Quote:
The modelling part is time taking (compared to the QC part). A good head is at least 2/3 days hard work. Count 2 more days for detailed ears and tongue (which i skip)

Ok, good points. I have had a really hard time getting decent tongue going, and it seems like many face morphs contain at least one tongue sticking out pose. I hadn't really considered just skipping ears either (I've sheared off ears from models and slapped them on other models).

Quote:
The texturing part is semi-automatic, called "unwrapping", using builtin tools or scripts like texporter. Then from a basic head, you make different poses (aka morph targets). There's a modifier in 3dsmax especially for this, called "morpher".

Does the morph tool let you kind of push around polygons to keep them all in the right order? (ala Blender sculpt). I find the texturing to be the easiest part of the whole process... I usually make a "map" of where all the polygon division happens, fly it into Photoshop or Gimp, do all of my texture map there, then fly it back to whatever modeling program I'm using.

Quote:
Then morph targets are exported as FBX (or DAE) meshes.

If you ever get some decent method going for the DAE morph (you probably saw the long drawn out thread), let me know, even if you aren't sharing.